Language Log: gender variation in French Native Speakers

[tree_and_leaf]

French can't do genders either, shock!

Though what really shocks me is that there seems to have been so little work done on the topic; it's a pity that there's no indication as to where the native speakers came from. Certainly in German it's well known that some dialects have divergent genders of common words (Swabians have a habit of referring to 'der Butter' instead of 'die Butter', for instance, and there are similar anomalies around Aachen). The only factor the article mentions is age - it's possible that a growing uncertainty about gender might be evidence of a process which, left to itself, lead to it dying out, but I doubt that that will happen in a language with a fixed written system, particularly one watched over by the Académie.

Comments

[parrot-knight.livejournal.com]

Has anyone done any work on how the prevalence of a written language affects language change? English seemed to change the most when it was marginalised as a literary language, IIRC, but then again some of that change might have happened 'underground' before the Norman Conquest, as I seem to remember the collision between Anglo-Saxon and Norse cultures has been given as part of the reason for the emergence of the 's' plural.

[tree_and_leaf]

Written language as such seems to have less of a conservation effect than you'd think - German also undergoes a lot of changed between Old High and modern German - the key factor is an accepted and binding standard.

I suspect it's a coincidence that so many shifts happened in English while it wasn't being written (again, you can track comparable processes in German, where there was no disruption in literary production). The other factor is that an influx of French speakers must have had some sort of impact on the language beyond the suspension of literary activity in English.

[rivrea.livejournal.com]

It might amuse you to hear that our two French exchange students started to groan in desperation when my dormmates and I couldn't agree on the gender of quite a few German nouns (e.g. 'Joghurt', 'Filter', 'Spezi', 'Radio'...). "How should we know what's right," they whimpered, "if you don't know that yourselves?"

And divergent genders of common nouns appear in the dialect of the Upper Palatinate as well. It's 'der Butter', too, and 'der Kartoffel'.

[tree_and_leaf]

What a pity you never asked them about French genders!

die Joghurt, der Filter, das Radio???... and Spezi I wouldn't know

[rivrea.livejournal.com]

I opted for 'der Joghurt', but 'die' AND 'das' were mentioned as well. And I think it's 'der Filter' in common usage and 'das Filter' in technical jargon. 'Das Radio' is standard German, whereas 'der Radio' is preferred in some Bavarian dialects. And it's either 'das Spezi' or 'der Spezi' when you refer to the beverage. If you use it as a variation of 'Spezl' (Bavarian for 'chap', 'mate', 'pal'), it's always 'der Spezi'. Confused? :)

[tree_and_leaf]

Yes. But I find it oddly consoling!

[azdak.livejournal.com]

my dormmates and I couldn't agree on the gender of quite a few German nouns (e.g. 'Joghurt', 'Filter', 'Spezi', 'Radio'...).

These are borrowings, though (apart from Spezi, of course, which I presume is an abbreviation?), and the assignment of gender to borrowed nouns is often problematic. And while there is dialect variation in the gender of a surprisingly large number of nouns, there's agreement amongst the speakers of the dialects as to what gender they use. What's fascinating about Ayoun's study is (i) that a lot of those words are native and (ii) the extraordinary level of uncertainty about gender. Since I'm constantly having to ask my kids the gender of nouns, I can confirm anecdotally that German doesn't have this kind of flexibility in gender assignment - for the majority of nouns, speakers' intuitions cpoincide exactly with the grammar books.

[tree_and_leaf]

Yes - it's surprising that there seems to be so much vagueness about so many relatively common, 'old' words.

[anna-in-the-sky.livejournal.com]

This is incredibly interesting, thanks for linking! Also, take that you arrogant French waiters who would mock me for ordering "une coca" when apparantly, it's masculin. *g*

There is certainly one borrowed word in German which I always struggle with when it comes to gender: Why the hell is it 'das Email'? Well, I do know why, but I have to physically force myself to say or write 'das' instead of 'die' every time I use it.

BTW, they often say 'der Butter' in Baden, too. They pronounce it'de Budder', really. Funny, isn't it?

[tree_and_leaf]

I seem to have convinced myself that it is 'die Email' (actually, I'm sure Wahrig lists both as possible - drat, it's not in the shorter Wahrig and my big one's at home in Scotland)

Oddly enough, although I currently live in Baden, I know more Swabian dialect speakers (well, it's not surprising: most of the people I know in Baden are academics, and most of the people I know in Schwaben are Scouts, and hence more diverse).

[anna-in-the-sky.livejournal.com]

I seem to have convinced myself that it is 'die Email' (actually, I'm sure Wahrig lists both as possible - drat, it's not in the shorter Wahrig and my big one's at home in Scotland)

LEO says so, too! I just checked. Now I'm even more confused.