(no subject)
Aug. 8th, 2006 09:49 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
tree_and_leafWhile it does seem that a certain author of Draco-centric fic has been taking more liberties than she should have with other people's work, I'm beginning to feel that some of the specific instances she's being hauled over the coals for are unreasonable. As ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
snorcackcatcher has said elsewhere, allusion to other literary works, and yes, even 'stealing' ideas from them is a standard part of writing even original fic.
It occurs to me that, by this standard, Gaudy Night, which is one of the finest and most principled novels I know on the subject of intellectual integrity - would, on these measures, be deemed plagiaristic. Peter Wimsey scarely opens his mouth without uttering a quotation or a witty allusion, Harriet is nearly as bad, the SCR at Shrewsbury seem to regard this as part of normal discourse, and even Lord St George, who is fairly bird-witted, has a go at it. In fact, I can't think of a character who doesn't (unless it's Harriet's boring ex-best friend). More than that, the narrator uses bits of Shakespeare and other writers, which I daresay she expected the reader to spot. And no, I would not dream of counting this as plagiarism, and I don't think it needs a footnote. Neither, despite the tremendously unhelpful notes, does The Waste Land, or anything else by TS Eliot.
I was recently looking at a Sandman novel (I'm afraid I forget which one), in which a character told what I recognised to be the Scottish story of the lady of, I think, the Gordons, whose husband was murdered by the Gregora. The MacGregors, being not only callous but not awfully bright, went off to the man's house carrying his head in a bag, which they then dumped on the table and drew their swords to deal with his wife. She, however, by sheer sense of character and skills as a hostess, got them to sit down, and had a dinner served to them with lots of wine. Until the moment that the men of her clan slipped very quietly into the room, when she said 'But here is my man without wine or food. Give him to drink!' and the men of her clan immediately cut the Gregora's throats. And afterwards one of her men asked her how sha had kept her countenance and saved herself, in front of yon fell thing on the table, and she replied "He was a fine man and I am sick at heart to have lost him. But I am a woman of the Gordons, and the day that I cannot keep my countenance and work my will upon men, that is a day that you will never see." I read it first in one of George MacDonald Fraser's novels (one of the MacAuslan ones, probably The Sheikh and the Dustbin), but I never thought that GMF invented it. Nor do I think that either GMF or Neil Gaiman are plagiarists, and my reaction to its appearance in Sandman was one of pleased recognition.
I wonder if the plagiarism policies of the universities are at the back of this, where people have been left feeling that unless you cite everything, you can expect to be sent down (not, in fact, that people always do this, and not like far more blatant plagiarism has been eradicated). Or maybe it's just because people are happy to see an overrated fic cut down, on whatever grounds. But while the use of Pamela Dean's fiction, and some of the other examples cited, are clearly unacceptable, I really don't think it's necessary for everyone to start footnoting the odd reference to The Waste Land or the Archers or whatever. On the other hand, what a read through of the Draco stories confirmed for me was: you can overdo the allusion, and if someone is going to turn into a heavy user of quotations, then it ought to be in character for them to do so. But those are literary sins, rather than matters of honesty and dishonesty. An overuse of lines from Buffy, Blackadder and Prattchet doesn't necessarily make you a bad person. It will, however, almost certainly make you a bad writer.
ETA Just to clarify, this is not to say that I think either the acceptance of gifts (particularly such valuable ones), or the heavy-handed and unpleasant way that criticism of Cassie has been dealt with in the past is right. It clearly isn't.
snorcackcatcher has said elsewhere, allusion to other literary works, and yes, even 'stealing' ideas from them is a standard part of writing even original fic.It occurs to me that, by this standard, Gaudy Night, which is one of the finest and most principled novels I know on the subject of intellectual integrity - would, on these measures, be deemed plagiaristic. Peter Wimsey scarely opens his mouth without uttering a quotation or a witty allusion, Harriet is nearly as bad, the SCR at Shrewsbury seem to regard this as part of normal discourse, and even Lord St George, who is fairly bird-witted, has a go at it. In fact, I can't think of a character who doesn't (unless it's Harriet's boring ex-best friend). More than that, the narrator uses bits of Shakespeare and other writers, which I daresay she expected the reader to spot. And no, I would not dream of counting this as plagiarism, and I don't think it needs a footnote. Neither, despite the tremendously unhelpful notes, does The Waste Land, or anything else by TS Eliot.
I was recently looking at a Sandman novel (I'm afraid I forget which one), in which a character told what I recognised to be the Scottish story of the lady of, I think, the Gordons, whose husband was murdered by the Gregora. The MacGregors, being not only callous but not awfully bright, went off to the man's house carrying his head in a bag, which they then dumped on the table and drew their swords to deal with his wife. She, however, by sheer sense of character and skills as a hostess, got them to sit down, and had a dinner served to them with lots of wine. Until the moment that the men of her clan slipped very quietly into the room, when she said 'But here is my man without wine or food. Give him to drink!' and the men of her clan immediately cut the Gregora's throats. And afterwards one of her men asked her how sha had kept her countenance and saved herself, in front of yon fell thing on the table, and she replied "He was a fine man and I am sick at heart to have lost him. But I am a woman of the Gordons, and the day that I cannot keep my countenance and work my will upon men, that is a day that you will never see." I read it first in one of George MacDonald Fraser's novels (one of the MacAuslan ones, probably The Sheikh and the Dustbin), but I never thought that GMF invented it. Nor do I think that either GMF or Neil Gaiman are plagiarists, and my reaction to its appearance in Sandman was one of pleased recognition.
I wonder if the plagiarism policies of the universities are at the back of this, where people have been left feeling that unless you cite everything, you can expect to be sent down (not, in fact, that people always do this, and not like far more blatant plagiarism has been eradicated). Or maybe it's just because people are happy to see an overrated fic cut down, on whatever grounds. But while the use of Pamela Dean's fiction, and some of the other examples cited, are clearly unacceptable, I really don't think it's necessary for everyone to start footnoting the odd reference to The Waste Land or the Archers or whatever. On the other hand, what a read through of the Draco stories confirmed for me was: you can overdo the allusion, and if someone is going to turn into a heavy user of quotations, then it ought to be in character for them to do so. But those are literary sins, rather than matters of honesty and dishonesty. An overuse of lines from Buffy, Blackadder and Prattchet doesn't necessarily make you a bad person. It will, however, almost certainly make you a bad writer.
ETA Just to clarify, this is not to say that I think either the acceptance of gifts (particularly such valuable ones), or the heavy-handed and unpleasant way that criticism of Cassie has been dealt with in the past is right. It clearly isn't.
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(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-08 03:45 pm (UTC)True. However, the part that irks me is that she never stated "Certain lines are taken from Buffy/Blackadder/etc." And when someone said to her, "Oh, I really liked it when Draco said XXXX, that was so funny!" she would say "Thanks, I thought it was good when I wrote it too," NOT "Yes, it was, wasn't it? I borrowed it from Buffy/Blackadder/Terry Pratchett/Red Dwarf."
It is not that she used quotes, it is that she used quotes and then claimed them as her own original phrasing. Once or twice is excusable. 60% of the fic is not. I'm sure that at no point does Ms. Sayers state or imply that all the quotes and bon mots Lord Peter and Harriet drop are her own phrasing.
(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-08 03:50 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2006-08-08 04:01 pm (UTC)Of course not. The reader is supposed to be able to spot them, and to enjoy the game. Of course, CC seems to have tried to imply that a game of that sort existed with her fics, but it looks a bit ret-conny to me, especially if she was happy to take credit for other people's wit.
I suppose what I really meant is that I think a happy medium between what happened in the Draco trilogy and footnoting everything - and it's sad if, as a result of this, footnoting everything will become necessary. Some people (not CC) have a highly allusive style, without being plagiarists, and I enjoy that sort of writing. But I'm really not trying to defend the indefensible.